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hanschristian.org • View topic - Installing second fuel pick-up in existing diesel tank.

Installing second fuel pick-up in existing diesel tank.

Moderators: warmrain, mimoza

Installing second fuel pick-up in existing diesel tank.

Postby kelpie » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:10 am

We are the original owners of a 1980 HC33 ("Kelpie") and are looking into the possibility of installing a secondary fuel pick-up ("tap") into the aft, deepest portion of the fuel tank.

From what I'm reading here, a number of you who have actually opened up your tank to look inside have found the tank to be fiberglass--and not 'black iron' (or whatever metal) the paperwork claims is used in the boats.

Several questions:

1. When installing a secondary pickup, what was the pickup made out of--copper tubing or?

2. Approximately how long does the pickup need to be (e.g. about how deep is the deeper aft part of the tank)?

3. How did you mount the pickup to the top of the tank and seal it? Was it epoxied in place? Or was something more sophisticated done (e.g., using a fitting with some sort of gasket?

Any advice or experience in this area would be much appreciated.

- Tony Garland
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fuel Tank

Postby mitchk » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:41 pm

Don't know if this will help but go the "Gallery, click on last addtions, you will see a picture of the inside on my fuel tank, HC33 #104
Mitch and Deb Karlson
SV Camino
1986 HC33T #104
Seabrook, Texas
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Postby kelpie » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:50 pm

Hi Mitch,

Thanks so much for pointing me to that photo. Gives me a really good idea what ours will probably look like too.

We have hull #5 which we commissioned in October of 1980. I also received some email and a photo from Stephen Carstensen (WARMRAIN) showing the external photo of the lower portion of his tank where he installed a second fuel pick-up and also used a deck fill as an access port for pumping out gunk whenever he wants to check for it.

You all are very helpful. Thanks a ton.

- Tony Garland, HC33 #5 "Kelpie"
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Postby mike » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:25 pm

Its possible to use a bottle gas type fitting thats used to take pipe through a bulkhead called a bulkhead coupling. In the uk they are made by a company called Wade fittings. Its a double compression fitting with a mounting flange & nut to suit pipe sizes from 1/4" to 1/2". On some fittings the pipe will pass completely through it, but on some you may have to use a piece for inside the tank & a piece on the outside or drill through the fitting if you want to use a continuous piece of pipe. All you would need to do is drill a hole in the top of your tank for the dia of fitting then fasten it through the tank top with the single nut & sealing washers each side. Before you attach the fitting cut a length of pipe so it is clear of the bottom of the tank & attach it with the compression fitting (the fitting has 2 compression one for inside the tank & the other to take the pipe outside which can be made off & bent over to the appropriate angle to lead where ever you want it to.

Have a look at the link & scroll down to the appropriate fittings part no's 7862 to 7869

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/145b.asp

mike
200 ton Master
Past Owner Jolly Swagman - HC 43t Cutter Hull# 110 1987
http://www.eskside.co.uk/william_riley/mike_coates.htm
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Postby kelpie » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:59 am

"Kelpie"
HC 33 #5 (1980)
LaConner, WA
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Pics

Postby mitchk » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:43 pm

Mitch and Deb Karlson
SV Camino
1986 HC33T #104
Seabrook, Texas
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Pics to Gallery

Postby mitchk » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:51 pm

Mitch and Deb Karlson
SV Camino
1986 HC33T #104
Seabrook, Texas
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Postby mike » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:34 pm

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Photos of HC 33 tank top with new tank pickup and inspection

Postby kelpie » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:20 am

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"Kelpie"
HC 33 #5 (1980)
LaConner, WA
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Postby sv_bruadair » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:40 pm

Kelpie,

Thank you for sharing your installation of the second pick up tube and the photos. We are in the process of probably needing to replace the original pick up tube and had scratched our heads for a while trying to figure out how to tackle this project.

I now have the garbour plug with a 1/2" copper pipe soldered to it, ready to install. I'm just trying to figure out the best place to install it.

The reason we're thinking we need to install a new pick up tube for the engine is we're experiencing the following symptoms. The first incident happened while we were motor sailing along the coast of Panama, all of a sudden the engine acted like it was not getting fuel. Filters and everything checked okay. Added six gallons to our tank from a jerry can and the engine fired right up and ran fine. We estimated that we had 42 gallons left in our tank at the time the engine quit.

The second time was when we were motor sailing from Panama to Colombia, the engine again started sputtering as if it were not getting fuel but this time before it quit I was able to quickly pour one jerry can (6 gallons) into the tank and as soon as the diesel hit the tank the engine resumed it's normal operation. This happened again when we had an estimated 42 gallons of fuel in the tank.

The only think I can think of is that we have a hole in our pick up tube somewhere in the middle and as soon as we get to about 42 gallons remaining it starts to suck air. So I'm thinking that a new pick up tube might be necessary. We'll keep the original in place as I don't want to cut it out plus it might come in handy for a diesel heater if we decide to head to cooler climates.

So here's a couple questions. Does anyone have any other ideas of why my Yanmar 3QM30F did what it did? Does anyone think I'm on the right track to install a new pick up tube?


Kelpie - how is your new pick up tube working? as expected?

Thanks in advance for any ideas and feedback,
Damon and David
s/v Bruadair
1984 HC33 #58
www.bruadair.us
www.sv-bruadair.blogspot.com

Out cruising somewhere in Colombia or Panama
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Postby warmrain » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:23 pm

There are a couple things that come to mind Damon,

It is curious that adding fuel solves the problem...

So I'm thinking you may have a weak fuel pump and when the level of the fuel gets low enough the pump cannot "lift" the fuel that far. These pump are not rebuildable and you should always carry at least one spare. I would change out your pump ASAP and retain the old one. If the problem does NOT go away, at least you have a KNOWN GOOD spare (it used to be common to fit the spares and retain the in-use components as spares because they are known to be operational).

We had feed problems when we put a "T" fitting on the top of the fuel fitting to feed the heater. While this has been done successfully on other HC models it causes the 3QM30 to starve for fuel because the pickup tube is below spec. I called Yanmar to talk about this and they told me that the minimum recomended tube size was 3/8", what is in there is 1/4".

The fuel fitting in Warmrain was a plate of brass or bronze that had a reduction "bushing" with a length of copper tube soldered into it. The badness is that the whole thing is assembled before the assembly is glassed into the top of the tank. And the bushing (a pipe thread) is screwed in from the underside! That's right, from beneath, so there is no way to get it out of the tank...

I knew I had two things to fix, I needed a larger fuel pick up tube for the engine and I wanted a separate one for the heater.

Here's what we did for the engine...
I ground away all the extra glass and epoxy from the top of the fitting so I could see what I had. When I determinied that I could not pull the tube I decided to push it into the tank. I did this by screwing a pipe threaded brass plug into the bushing and wrenching it until the whole thing fell into the bottom of the tank (it has been there for 19 years with no ill effect). (Hey, copper is a biocide, rigth...!?)

Then I happened to find in a salvage yard a fuel lift tube of 3/8"' diameter so I obtained that and was able to get it to fit into the original threaded plate using a bushing (from the top this time, LOL). You can see this in the left of the photo. BTW the straight tube will not quite reach the bottom due to the slanted aft wall for the tank, but I'd rather not draw off the bottom anyway. We have drawn out 72 gallons though.

I then used a bronze bulkhead fitting to install a 1/4" copper tube fuel pickup for the heater. I cut this pipe 3 or 4 inches shorter than the engine lift tube so that I could not run us out of fuel at anchor with the heater. You can see this fitting just forward (center fitting in pic) of the fuel lift tube. It has a 1/4 turn fuel shut off valve on it.

A few years later we decided to see what was living at the bottom of the tank. I was unaware of the inspection ports available at:
http://www.seabuilt.com/
(that I intend to install and so decided what I could do was to install a fuel fill so that I could pump off the bottom of the tank. This has worked very well. We obtained our fuel fill fro West Marine and it is one that has an O-ring. I think this is important because there just may be a little pressure on the fitting when there is fuel in the fuel fill tube after topping off.

When we pumped off the very bottom of the tank after almost 20 years all we got was clean fuel...! The only thing I can think of is that because the tank is always in the same 50 degree water there is never any condensation. Of course we use a biocide. This fitting is in the center of the pic, forward (to the right of) the other fittings (stainless).

Misc:
The black hose I am holding out of the way in the upper right of the pic is a fresh water cooling hose that runs to a "red dot" style (automotive type) radiator and fan in the settee end nearest the compression post.

In the lower left of the pic is the copper strap from the SSB to the tuner in the lazarette.

I'd like to point out how close these fittings are to the starboard side of the tank. The grated hatch is offset sufficiently to the starboard side that you must add fittings as close to the centerline as possible to keep from breaking out of the wall of the tank, or in extreme situations, through the hull. To give you an example, when the hole was drilled for the pump out (fuel fill) fitting I was able to reach into the hole with my finger and feeling around toward starboard (down in the picture) touch the inside wall of the tank. Imagine how close the screws for this fitting and the diesel heater bulkhead fittings are to the edge of the tank wall...!

Best, Cars
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Yacht "Warmrain" 1986 HC33T #123
Built by Hansa Yacht und Schiffbau G.M.B.H. Taichung Taiwan by Herb Guttler (last Hansa hull was #131, built 1987)

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Postby warmrain » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:51 pm

Mike,

I notice on Kelpie that you have a proper fuel oil barb fitted. You will notice on Warmrain I have done the same. Fuel oil hose barbs are identified by the bright yellow collar that is easily seen in your photo kelpie_hc33_05_fuel_tank_pickup.jpg. However, not only is the hose clamp not required, it is also a detriment as due to the highly raised barbs of this type of fitting it cuts through the hose...

My recommendation would be to cut the hose off the fitting (the thing about these types of fittings is you have to cut them off, loose the hose clamp and press the hose back over the fitting, leaving it "bare".

~Cars
Yacht "Warmrain" 1986 HC33T #123
Built by Hansa Yacht und Schiffbau G.M.B.H. Taichung Taiwan by Herb Guttler (last Hansa hull was #131, built 1987)

Posts are my opinion based on my experience; your results may vary from mine.
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Postby sv_bruadair » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:51 pm

Damon and David
s/v Bruadair
1984 HC33 #58
www.bruadair.us
www.sv-bruadair.blogspot.com

Out cruising somewhere in Colombia or Panama
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Postby sv_bruadair » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:54 pm

Damon and David
s/v Bruadair
1984 HC33 #58
www.bruadair.us
www.sv-bruadair.blogspot.com

Out cruising somewhere in Colombia or Panama
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Postby warmrain » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:59 pm

Yacht "Warmrain" 1986 HC33T #123
Built by Hansa Yacht und Schiffbau G.M.B.H. Taichung Taiwan by Herb Guttler (last Hansa hull was #131, built 1987)

Posts are my opinion based on my experience; your results may vary from mine.
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